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Forum for those in general agreement with the ideas of Rosa Luxemburg.
Foro para aquellos que tienen un acuerdo general con las ideas de Rosa Luxemburgo.
Forum pour ceux qui ont un accord général avec les idées de Rosa Luxembourg.

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    Some of my thoughts

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    redrover

    Number of posts : 3
    Registration date : 2009-02-19

    Some of my thoughts

    Post  redrover on Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:17 am

    Hi all

    I was very glad to find this website after years of searching for a network of people with similar ideas to myself. My ideas on politics have always been very close to the work of Rosa Luxemburg. I'd like to run through some of these ideas as I've never been able to discuss them with like minded people before. Any critism would be welcomed.

    Democracy

    Well firstly, I don't believe socialism can or even should come through parliament as the working class must emanciapate themselves. I also think a revolutionary party is necessary as it can bring together revolutionary socialists in order to give the movement a greater sense of direction. This party should be built on direct democracy and any centralism should be based upon a common desire to act in unison when needed. I think its very important that socialists operate the same level of democracy in the party as they would hope a system of worker's concils would have in a socialist society. When all is said and done, worker's democracy is absolutely essensial because without it there will be no socialism.

    Britain

    In Britain where I live, most revolutionary groups are either Trotskyist or anarchist which I find a little frustrating. I think there is room for all but I would like to see a Luxemburgist league or party in there somewhere. I think there are left communists within the Anarchist groups that hold some Luxemburgist ideas but I've never had contact with them. Most of my fellow militants in my union and locally are Trotskyists.

    Trade unions

    I share with Trotskyism a belief that work in the Trade unions is necessary but I would put more emphasis on rank and file struggle rather than winning leadership positions. Change needs to occur from the bottom up. I think a revolutionary that succeeds in becoming general secretary of a union with a reformist membership will find themselves in a pretty difficult position. I belong to the Industrial Workers of the World which is a revolutionary trade union commited to worker's management of industry. The IWW wishes to encourage and where possible organise militant workers within the trade unions and outside of them in sectors that the unions won't touch. The IWWs belief in growing the new society in the shell of the old fits in well with creating revolutionary socialism from the bottom up. I think that revolutionary unions should not support any particular party because this makes them more prone to splits. Also in a socialist society where I would hope that industry would be run by industrial unions of workers, It wouldn't be good to have any one party dominating them in a multi-party worker's council democracy. I do however think top-down trade unions should remain political if this is what their membership wants. They may even have a role in a socialist society at least for a while.

    Parliament

    I think it is important to take part in parliamentary elections for the purpose of making propaganda. If a revolutionary socialist government was ever elected, its first duty would be to dissolve itself and leave power with the workers councils. I'm of course assuming that only a revolutionary situation which has already given rise to popular organs of workers power could ever lead to such a parlamentary election result. Again as with the trade unions the party should concentrate its attention on developing organs of workers power rather than chasing seats in Parliament. To help this members serving on the central executive of the party should not also be Members of Parliament or leaders of reformist trade unions.

    The United front

    I think that the united front is necessary at times. Especially when the movement is on the defensive. Again this is best achieved from below but a pact can be made between parties to put forward a socialist platform. A revolutionary party must however always remain independent and shouldn't hide their politics (especially their belief that parliament can't deliver socialism) or criticism of the reformist party. They shouldn't join a reformist government (no matter how socialist) as ministers as this would comprmise there independence and their electors sense of self-efficacy.

    Well there is a few ideas. I'd like any feedback regarding them. Thankyou for spending time reading through some of my thoughts.

    In solidarity

    Mark

    luxemburguista
    Admin

    Number of posts : 1107
    Group : Alternativa Roja y Verde - Los Alternativos
    Website : http://altermundialistas.wordpress.com/
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    Re: Some of my thoughts

    Post  luxemburguista on Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:15 pm

    In this Forum, comrade, you can see the thougths of diverse groups. The comrades of the ILN we raise similar positions than you. We think too that it´s neccesary a luxemburgist organization. This is the reason that we are forming this group, this network.
    Welcome to the Forum.
    SALUD
    Paco


    _________________
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    Alternativa Roja y Verde - Los Alternativos
    Democracia Comunista Internacional

    rubion

    Number of posts : 60
    Registration date : 2008-09-19

    Re: Some of my thoughts

    Post  rubion on Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:11 am

    Hello Redrover
    Peut être pourra tu faire traduire ce que j'écris.
    Il me semble que tu demande de pouvoir rencontrer des élements de la gauche communiste en GB .
    Pour cela je t'invite a aller voir se site qui est celui du Courant Communiste international. Cette organisation a une section en GB que tu pourras contacter. Tu verras sur le site il y a aussi un endroit ou on prendre position sur les articles et à partir de là qu'un débat s'instaure.
    Voici le lien: http://en.internationalism.org/

    Salut. Rubion

    Mike Morin

    Number of posts : 9
    Age : 63
    Registration date : 2009-03-05

    Economic Democracy

    Post  Mike Morin on Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:51 pm

    Hi "Red Rover",

    I agree that Political Party action through existing government organizations is not the way to the desired reform.

    We need to organize and educate workers about the principles of ecological socialism. I concede that the ideal is a moneyless system, but dealing with the reality, we have to somehow gain control of the economic equity holdings and reallocate such to a planned ecological economy based on local/inter-community/inter-regional and worldwide solidarity.

    I don't think that I need to point out the enormity of such a task.

    Hopefully, I have found a group that will not be contentious relative to the mission, principles, values, and strategies that I am putting forth. Rather, I am hoping that this group will provide the cooperation and synergy to help us move towards the realization of a better world.

    Peace.

    Mike Morin
    www.peoplesequityunion.blogspot.com

    redrover

    Number of posts : 3
    Registration date : 2009-02-19

    Reply to Mike

    Post  redrover on Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:34 pm

    Hi Mike

    Thanks for the reply. i hope you will find the ideas on this forum in line with your own as I have done. Green politics is something I have only recently got involved in but I think that Luxemburgist socialism should be perfectly compatible with an ecological socialism. The creation of a sustainable economy should be central to any democratically formulated economic plan within a socialist society. For me socialism is about humanity taking control of their lives rather than being swept along by market factors and the power politics of the bureaucratic state. I believe that this involves working with nature rather than seeking a short sighted domination of it.

    I hope that the ideas of Rosa Luxemburg will eventually see a resurgence on the revolutionary left. At the moment most socialists rejecting stalinism or social democratic parliamentry politics either become Trotskyists or anarchists. Whilst i see both as valid revolutionary ideologies, i think that Luxemburgism provides the clearest and most appropriate path towards socialism in the 21st century. If your unfamiliar with Rosa Luxemburg's work i think the best place to start is with "The Mass strike". She wrote this as an analysis of the 1905 Russian revolution and it is still remains relevant today.

    Are you American? They have a group there called Workers Democracy which seems based upon Luxemburgist ideas. They have a website that maybe worth a look.

    Hopefully speak again.
    In solidarity

    Mark (redrover)

    redrover

    Number of posts : 3
    Registration date : 2009-02-19

    The International Communist Current

    Post  redrover on Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:22 pm

    Rubion Bonjour

    Merci pour la réponse. J'ai essayé de traduire mon message en français par le biais de Google translator. J'espère qu'il sortira ok. Merci de me donner les détails du Courant Communiste International. J'ai eu un bon oeil à leur site web et je suis d'accord avec bon nombre de leurs idées. Je ne suis pas d'accord sur certains principes fondamentaux comme si je crois qu'il est nécessaire de travailler dans les syndicats et d'utiliser parfois la tactique du front uni. Je pense aussi que le Parlement peut être utilisé à des fins de propagande. J'ai aussi probablement pas de rejeter tous les mouvements de libération nationale. Je conviens qu'il est insensé de soutenir la lutte contre la classe ouvrière, comme les mouvements de libération nationale actuelle des groupes fondamentalistes islamiques. Cependant, je pense que certains mouvements de libération nationale tels que le Sud Afican ANC peut être progressive de la classe ouvrière, comme ils ont étendu les libertés civiles. Je pense que le mieux serait de travailler seul et de manière indépendante pour une solution révolutionnaire socialiste à oppresion national, tout en coopérant avec les bourgeois nationaux lberation progressive des mouvements dans la mesure du possible. Disant cela, je pense que Rosa Luxemburg avait raison de s'opposer à tous les mouvements de libération nationale en son temps. Révolution a été très à l'ordre du jour puis, en particulier en Russie. Ici, les mouvements de libération nationale a été une distraction inutile (tout comme l'appel à une assemblée constituante au cours de la révolution de 1917). J'adorerais faire partie d'un groupe en Grande-Bretagne Luxemburgist mais malheureusement, je ne pense pas qu'il y est pour le moment. J'espère que la croissance de ce forum mai conduire à une prochainement.

    Parlez de nouveau bientôt.
    En solidarité

    Mark (redrover)

    luxemburguista
    Admin

    Number of posts : 1107
    Group : Alternativa Roja y Verde - Los Alternativos
    Website : http://altermundialistas.wordpress.com/
    Registration date : 2008-04-16

    Re: Some of my thoughts

    Post  luxemburguista on Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:10 am

    redrover wrote:Are you American? They have a group there called Workers Democracy which seems based upon Luxemburgist ideas. They have a website that maybe worth a look.

    The comrades of Workers Democracy created this Forum too. Some of them are members too of the International Luxemburgist Network. We have similar (very similar) political positions than WD. And than "redrover" too.
    SALUD


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    JM Delgado

    Number of posts : 731
    Group : Democracia Comunista Internacional-Organización marxista luxemburguista
    Location : Metalúrgico
    Registration date : 2008-06-20

    Re: Some of my thoughts

    Post  JM Delgado on Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:41 am

    Translation a español:

    Mark (redrover) Rubion Buenos días

    Gracias por la respuesta. Traté de traducir mi mensaje en francés por el rodeo de Google translator. Espero que él salga o.k.. Gracias por darme los detalles de la Corriente Comunista Internacional. Tuve un buen ojo en su sitio Web y estoy de acuerdo con buen número de sus ideas. No estoy de acuerdo en ciertos principios fundamentales como si creyera que era necesario trabajar en los sindicatos y utilizar a veces la táctica de la frente unida. Creo también que el Parlamento puede ser utilizado a fines de propaganda. Tengo tan probablemente no rechazar todos los movimientos de liberación nacional. Convengo que es insensato sostener la lucha contra la clase obrera, como los movimientos de liberación nacional actual de los grupos fundamentalistas islámicos. Sin embargo, creo que ciertos movimientos de liberación nacional tales como el Sur Afican ANC puede ser progresivo de la clase obrera, como ellos extendieron las libertades civiles. Creo que mejor habría que trabajar sólo y de manera independiente para una solución revolucionaria socialista a a oppresion nacional, cooperando con los burgueses nacionales lberation progresivo de los movimientos dentro de lo posible. Diciendo esto, creo que Rosa Luxemburg tenía razón para oponerse a todos los movimientos de liberación nacional en su tiempo. Revolución muy fue de actualidad luego, en particular en Rusia. Aquí, los movimientos de liberación nacional estuvo una distracción inútil (totalmente como la llamada a una asamblea constituyente en el curso de la revolución de 1917). Encantaría formar parte de un grupo en Gran Bretaña Luxemburgist pero desgraciadamente, no pienso que él está allí por ahora. Espero que el crecimiento de este foro el mayo conducir a una pronto.

    Muy de acuerdo con Mark (Redrover) justo en los matices que utilizas y en los ejemplos que pones acerca de la legitimidad y condiciones para que los marxistas luxemburguistas podamos apoyar según que movimiento de liberación nacional, citas al CNA (ANC) justamente por ser impulsor de las libertades civiles, bien está, así sucedió en España durante los años de lucha contra la dictadura de Franco, los comunistas (ya entonces yo era luxemburguista, sin haber leído lo mas importante de RL) , las luchas por las "libertades catalanas" o por la Autonomía constituían un pilar importante en la lucha por la democracia, una vez llegada la democracia con la constitución de 1978 y haber elaborado sus asambleas regionales (o nacionales, según el desideratum nacionalista) sus respectivos estatutos de autonomias que les garantizan niveles de autogobierno tan amplios como si de estados federados se tratara (los lander alemanes o Escocia o Wales) y de ser las respectivas burguesias nacionalistas los que han mandado en los respectivos gobiernos "autonómicos" las izquierdas radicales, comunistas leninsitas, trotskistas, algunos anarquistas, a través de la "plantilla" leninista del "derecho de autodeterminación" ha acabado por conformar grupos, partidos, entidades, nacionalistas soberanistas o muy proximas.

    Todo ello ha enturbiado, dificultado y anulado la conciencia de clase, la conciencia proletaria, hasta ignorarla y prescindir de ella, es al dia de hoy una dificultad insalvable o poco menos para cualquier frente unido de vocación electoral, la misma Izquierda Anticapitalista, versión clonada del NPA francés, está siendo muy criticada y acusada de "españolista", así pues, par los comunistas luxemburguistas españoles resulta muy duro y dificil oponernos a este estado de cosas, a esta manera de seguir el juego del radicalismo pequeñoburgués nacionalista, particularmente en Euzkadi, Ctaluña, Valencia, Galicia.

    Pero...dificil y todo, vamos hacia adelante, cada dia mas haciendo y forzando a reflexionar a gente muy diferentes de izquierdas, con la suficiente formación y cultura política como para saber que llamarse "socialista revolucionario", "comunistas" o "libertario" NO ES SUFICIENTE CON LA AFRIMACIÓN AUTOREFERENCIADA, que resulta obligado, insustituible volver a los principios, a los valores internacionalistas, antinacionalistas, mundialistas, a Marx, a Rosa.

    Salud. JM.

    en francés de Google:

    Très conformément à Mark juste (Redrover) dans les nuances que tu utilises et dans les exemples que tu mets au sujet de la légitimité et les conditions pour que les marxistes luxemburguistas puissions appuyer selon qu'un mouvement de libération nationale, tu cites le CNA (ANC) justement pour être promoteur de la liberté civile, il est bien, ainsi il a succédé en Espagne pendant les années de lutte contre la dictature de Franco, des communistes (déjà alors j'étais luxemburguista, sans avoir lu de plus important de RL), les luttes par la "liberté catalane" ou par l'Autonomie constituaient un pilier important dans la lutte par la démocratie, une fois arrivée la démocratie avec la constitution de 1978 et avoir élaboré ses assemblées régionales (ou des nationaux, selon le desideratum nationaliste) ses statuts respectifs d'autonomies qui leur garantissent de si vastes niveaux d'autonomie comme si des états fédérés il s'agissait (le lander allemands ou l'Écosse ou Wales) et d'être les bourgeoisies respectives nationalistes ceux qui ont envoyé dans les gouvernements respectifs "autonomes" les gauches radicales, leninsitas communistes, trotskistas, quelques anarchistes, à travers de la "semelle" léniniste du "droit d'autodétermination" il a fini par façonner des groupes, des partis, des organismes, des nationalistes soberanistas ou très proches.

    Tout cela a troublé, compliqué et annulé la conscience de classe, la conscience prolétaire, jusqu'à l'ignorer et jusqu'à se passer d'elle, une difficulté insurmontable est au jour d'aujourd'hui ou peu moins pour tout front uni de vocation électorale, la même Gauche Anticapitaliste, une version clonada du NPA français, elle est très critiquée et une accusée "d'españolista", donc, une paire les communistes luxemburguistas espagnols semble très dure et difficile nous opposer à cet état de choses, à cette manière de suivre le jeu du radicalisme pequeñoburgués nationaliste, particulièrement dans Euzkadi, Ctaluña, Valence, en Galice.

    Mais ... difficile et tout, nous allons en avant, chaque jour plus en faisant et en forçant à réfléchir depuis des gens très différents des gauches, avec suffisant une formation et une culture politique comme pour le savoir que se nommer "socialiste révolutionnaire", "des communistes" ou "libertaire" IL N'EST PAS SUFFISANT AVEC L'AFRIMACIÓN AUTOREFERENCIADA, qui semble obligée, irremplaçable revenir aux principes, aux valeurs des internationalistes, des antinationalistes, mundialistas, à Marx, à Rose.

    Une santé. JM.

    ElIndio

    Number of posts : 341
    Group : Réseau Luxemburgiste International/International Luxemburgit Network
    Website : luxemburgism.lautre.net
    Registration date : 2008-04-16

    Re: Some of my thoughts

    Post  ElIndio on Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:55 pm

    Just went through this discussion, way after it got written.

    I would say I agree with the positions defended by redrover, which I think are Luxemburgists.

    As he points out, in general one can always find trotskyst and anarchist groups around but nothing in between. I also found it very frustrating as I searched for a way. Nevertheless, I believe that as the crisis deepens and workers realize that they are the ones that must find the solution to their situation, a revival of her ideas will come back... and we will be able to build something stronger than what Luxemburgism is at the moment.

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